74 1 NICHOLAS GOSSELIN, PREVIOUSLY SWORN: 2 CONTINUED EXAMINATION BY MR. CHAMP: 3 MR. CHAMP: We are on the record. It's January 4 21st, 2008. We are here on Court File T-324-07, Amnesty 5 International and BC Civil Liberties Association versus 6 Chief of the Defence Staff et al. Paul Champ for the 7 Applicants. We are here today for the continuation of the 8 Cross-Examination of Nicholas Gosselin on an affidavit 9 sworn December the 14th, 2007. 10 309. Q. Mr. Gosselin, I'll just advise you, we don't 11 need to re-swear you, but to remind you that the oath that 12 you swore at the commencement of this Cross-Examination is 13 still in force; okay? 14 A. Okay. 15 310. Q. Mr. Gosselin, we are here to examine you. You 16 are in Kabul, Afghanistan, I understand, for the record? 17 A. Correct. 18 311. Q. I think I recognize your voice. 19 MR. CHAMP: Mr. Graham, can you, for 20 authentication -- 21 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, I recognize his voice as well. 22 MR. CHAMP: 23 312. Q. Since we spoke last time, Mr. Gosselin, I've 24 had a number of documents produced to me regarding some of 25 your work in Kandahar. I believe that you have copies of 75 1 these documents either in electronic form or paper form 2 with you; is that so? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 313. Q. Do you have them accessible so I can ask you 5 questions on them right now? 6 A. Yes. 7 314. Q. Okay. 8 A. Hopefully I have the same that you have. 9 315. Q. Well, if yours have big black spots all over 10 them, then we've got the same versions. 11 A. Okay. 12 316. Q. So the one I'll start with, it does not have a 13 date. It starts with an e-mail and then it's one of your 14 site visit reports. The way I'll identify it is this 15 document has at the bottom 285 in the centre. The report 16 number looks like Kandahar 0123. KANDH 0123. 17 A. Okay. 18 317. Q. Periodic follow-up visit to NDS on blank. 19 A. Yes. 20 318. Q. This particular document is a three-page 21 document. The first page says from Gibbins, Christopher, 22 sent Monday, blank, to Cyril Borl‚, and then there is a 23 CC, and then subject, forward Kandahar 0123, detainees: 24 periodic follow-up, and there is an original message from 25 Kandahar PRT, sent blank to Kandahar PRT director, and 76 1 then there are a number of CCs there. The first two are 2 Kerry Buck and Christopher Gibbins. 3 A. That's the same document. 4 319. Q. Okay. So Mr. Gosselin, I understand that this 5 is a report and attached to it is a report prepared for 6 yourself -- by yourself, pardon me -- in respect of a site 7 visit to the NDS detention facility in Kandahar City? 8 A. Correct. 9 320. Q. This visit occurred shortly after you assumed 10 your position as the Human Rights and Detainee Officer in 11 Kandahar? 12 A. Yes, it did. 13 321. Q. I think this was your first visit? 14 A. It was. 15 322. Q. Mr. Gosselin, I will take you to the second 16 page. Halfway down the bottom it says, number 2, overall 17 situation of detention, and then beneath that there is 18 another heading and down a paragraph it starts A) our 19 interview was with blank, transfer to NDS on blank. 20 A. Yes. 21 323. Q. So this was a Canadian-transferred detainee 22 that you interviewed? 23 A. Correct. 24 324. Q. Who were you accompanied by on that interview? 25 A. I was accompanied by John Davison, the 77 1 political director at the PRT. 2 325. Q. This interview was conducted -- was it 3 conducted in this detainee's cell or was it in a separate 4 room? 5 A. It was in a separate room. 6 326. Q. And so were you in that room waiting and then 7 the NDS officials brought him there or was he already 8 taken to that room and then you entered it? 9 A. If I remember correctly, he was taken there. 10 We were waiting for him. 11 327. Q. Without, you know, giving us any information 12 that could any way endanger the security of that facility, 13 could you just describe that room for me? 14 A. It was just an office. It was a regular 15 office with a desk and chair. 16 328. Q. Were there windows? 17 A. Yeah. It was one window. 18 329. Q. Was the floor concrete or carpet? 19 A. Carpet. 20 330. Q. And can you give us an idea roughly how big 21 this room was? 22 A. It's about, I would say, probably a little 23 over -- well, maybe 20 feet long, 12 feet wide. Maybe not 24 that wide. Maybe 10 feet wide. 25 331. Q. I think I'm okay to ask this. I'm sure your 78 1 counsel will object, but this was an individual who was 2 transferred to the NDS after May 3rd? 3 A. Correct. 4 332. Q. Okay. Going to the final page of this 5 document, in the first paragraph the detainee indicates to 6 you that he hasn't been visited by a representative of 7 blank or any other representative it appears and he's not 8 provided with any legal representation. Is that so? 9 A. Yes. That's what we reported. 10 333. Q. And that he wasn't aware of the charges 11 against him? 12 A. Correct. 13 334. Q. And then in the -- 14 A. He was not clearly informed of the charges. 15 335. Q. Who was conducting this interview? Was it 16 yourself or was it Mr. Davison? 17 A. It was Mr. Davison. 18 336. Q. Okay. So then from the next paragraph I take 19 it that Mr. Davison asked this individual about his 20 interrogation by NDS guards? 21 A. I think the particulars about the question we 22 asked has been redacted. 23 337. Q. Okay. The first sentence of that paragraph 24 says: 25 "When asked about his interrogation, the detainee 79 1 came forward with an allegation of abuse". 2 So from that, I gather, he was just asked some 3 question about his interrogation? 4 A. I guess. 5 338. Q. And he indicated that interrogation in 6 question had taken place in the NDS facility? 7 A. Yes. 8 339. Q. And then he informed you and Mr. Davison that 9 he had been interrogated by a group of individuals on a 10 few different occasions? 11 A. Yes, interrogated -- yes, exactly as stated in 12 the report. 13 340. Q. Okay. Then he advised you and Mr. Davison 14 that he couldn't recall the details because he had been 15 knocked unconscious and that he had been beaten by his 16 interrogators with electric wires and a rubber hose? 17 A. Correct. 18 341. Q. Do you recall anything from his demeanour at 19 that time, Mr. Gosselin? 20 A. He was -- no, nothing that comes to mind. 21 Nothing particular. He was calm when he was answering the 22 questions. That's all I recall. 23 342. Q. And then he was able to -- he indicated to you 24 and Mr. Davison that in fact the interrogation and 25 beatings had taken place in that room? 80 1 A. Yes. 2 343. Q. And he pointed to a place on the floor where 3 he was held down and beaten? 4 A. Yes. That's what he indicated. 5 344. Q. And then he pointed to a chair in the room and 6 stated that the implements with which he had been beaten 7 were underneath the chair? 8 A. Yes. He pointed and -- yes. 9 345. Q. Then I understand from this report that either 10 you or Mr. Davison looked under the chair. Is that 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. I looked under the chair. 13 346. Q. You looked under the chair and was this like 14 an office chair or what kind of chair was it? 15 A. It was just a small -- yeah, a small office 16 chair. 17 347. Q. And beneath that chair you found a large piece 18 of braided electrical wire as well a rubber hose? 19 A. Yes. 20 348. Q. Can you describe that electrical wire? 21 Approximately how thick was it? 22 A. It was about -- it was -- the wire itself was 23 -- I would say about a quarter of an inch. It was twisted 24 and it was about -- I would say about 18 inches long. 25 349. Q. Then you replaced those items and continued to 81 1 question this detainee? 2 A. Correct. 3 350. Q. It indicates here that he showed you and 4 Mr. Davison a bruise on his back? 5 A. Yes. 6 351. Q. Did it appear to you that it was -- I 7 appreciate you have no medical training at all, 8 Mr. Gosselin, but did it appear that it could have been 9 caused by one of those implements you had just been 10 handling? 11 A. Yes, it could have been, but like you said, 12 I'm not a doctor, but it's possible. 13 352. Q. Then the next paragraph there is a sentence 14 that the detainee specifically asked that his allegations 15 be kept confidential. Did you ask him that, or did you or 16 Mr. Davison ask him that, or did he raise that topic? 17 A. No, we asked him that. 18 353. Q. Mr. Gosselin, this is one of your reports that 19 you and I discussed last time where you had heard or found 20 allegations of abuse or torture in an Afghan facility? 21 A. Correct. 22 354. Q. And Mr. Gosselin, to your knowledge, do the 23 Canadian Forces get your reports? 24 A. I guess they do. 25 355. Q. Mr. Gosselin, were transfers suspended as a 82 1 result of your report? 2 MR. GRAHAM: We object to that question on grounds 3 of national security, Section 38. *O* 4 MR. CHAMP: 5 356. Q. Mr. Gosselin, to your knowledge, transfers 6 have occurred since that time; correct? 7 MR. GRAHAM: We object to the question on the same 8 grounds of national security. *O* 9 MR. CHAMP: 10 357. Q. Mr. Gosselin, you have conducted other site 11 visits since that time? 12 A. Yes. 13 358. Q. To that same facility? 14 A. Yes. 15 359. Q. Did you conduct some of your interviews in 16 that same room? 17 A. Yes. 18 360. Q. Did you check to see if those implements of 19 torture were still in the room? 20 A. The instruments in question was not in the 21 room in subsequent visits. 22 361. Q. Did the existence of those implements -- were 23 they raised with the Afghan Government? 24 A. Yes, they were. 25 362. Q. And to your knowledge is that one of the 83 1 reasons why they were removed? 2 A. I couldn't answer that. I don't know. 3 363. Q. Did you consider taking those implements with 4 you, Mr. Gosselin, so that they couldn't be used against 5 any other -- 6 A. Pardon me? 7 364. Q. Did you consider taking those implements with 8 you so they couldn't be used against any other Canadian- 9 transferred detainees or any other individual in Afghan 10 custody? 11 A. No. 12 365. Q. Mr. Gosselin, I've got a couple of other 13 questions from some of your other reports. The next 14 report I'll take you to, at the bottom it's 280, and the 15 report is KANDH 0125. 16 A. Okay. I've got it. 17 366. Q. Mr. Gosselin, I'm assuming these are 18 chronological, that Kandahar 0125 followed Kandahar 0123? 19 A. Yeah. The reports are chronologic. 20 367. Q. Thank you. So turning to Kandahar 0125, this 21 is a three-page document from -- it starts, an e-mail from 22 Kandahar PRT-C4R, sent blank date, to Kandahar PRT, and 23 then there's a couple of CCs there, Kerry Buck and 24 Christopher Gibbins. Subject: Kandahar 0125 Detainees: 25 Periodic Follow-up Visit to NDS on blank. 84 1 A. Yes. 2 368. Q. Sorry, and I'm just doing that, Mr. Gosselin, 3 more for the record than yourself. You are in another 4 part of the world. I want to make sure we are all looking 5 at the same document. 6 In your report here on the second paragraph it 7 indicates that you met with a General Qayum. Am I 8 pronouncing his name correctly? 9 A. I think you pronounce it Kayume [phonetic]. 10 369. Q. Qayum? You explain that the visit was in the 11 context of the arrangement but also in light of events in 12 Canada, including newspaper allegations of abuse of 13 detainees and a recent court decision to render public 14 documents concerning our visits to NDS and Sarpoza. 15 So you are indicating to him that the disclosures 16 of those documents made a visit all the more important? 17 A. Yes. 18 370. Q. Did General Qayum express to you or indicate 19 to you that he understood the significance for the 20 Canadian Government that these events were in newspapers 21 or going to be in newspapers? 22 A. Can you repeat that? I missed the first part. 23 371. Q. Did General Qayum indicate to you that he 24 understood the importance of these events, the fact that 25 these events had been in Canada in the newspaper or did he 85 1 comment on that at all? 2 A. I think he may have. I understand that is 3 something important to the Government of Canada, but I 4 don't remember any specific comments or other comments. 5 372. Q. Okay. And this is your personal second visit 6 to the NDS facility? 7 A. It is. 8 373. Q. So if you go to the third page of this report, 9 Mr. Gosselin, he's got some information on some of your 10 interviews, and I take it these interviews were conducted 11 in the same room as before? 12 A. Correct. 13 374. Q. And at the top of the page a detainee says 14 that he was told that if he lied during interrogation he 15 would be beaten? 16 A. Yes. 17 375. Q. And was he indicating that that's what his 18 interrogators had told him? 19 A. Can you -- I don't know. I missed that part. 20 376. Q. I'm just going from the page before. It looks 21 like NDS officials were the ones who questioned him and it 22 was NDS officials who told him that he would be beaten if 23 he lied. Is that correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 377. Q. And then he says that he had been struck twice 86 1 on the hip with an electric cable? 2 A. Yes. 3 378. Q. Then later on down the page there is another, 4 a second detainee that you interviewed. This person told 5 you that he had been forced to stand up for an extended 6 period of time. He was slapped in the face a number of 7 times, and then he was threatened with some type of harm, 8 I gather? 9 A. That part has been redacted out. 10 379. Q. Yes. Do you know if these allegations here in 11 this report have been investigated by the Government of 12 Afghanistan? 13 A. I don't. I don't know. 14 380. Q. Okay. I'll take you to the next document that 15 I'd like you to look at. It's got a 292 at the bottom. 16 Kandahar 0126. 17 A. Yes. 18 381. Q. So this is a three-page document. It's an 19 e-mail from Kandahar PRT-C4R, sent blank date, 12:29 p.m. 20 to Kandahar KAF, CC: Kerry Buck, Christopher Gibbins and 21 others. Subject: Kandahar 0126 Detainees: Periodic 22 Follow-up Visit to Sarpoza Prison. So this was one of 23 your site visits, Mr. Gosselin? 24 A. Yes. 25 382. Q. This would have been your first site visit to 87 1 Sarpoza, I gather? 2 A. Yes. 3 383. Q. In here it indicates that you met with the 4 warden of Sarpoza prison and he complained about Canadian 5 high expectations in terms of detainee treatment and 6 possible conflict with Afghan customs and traditions. Is 7 that so? 8 A. Can you repeat the question? 9 384. Q. I see here in the second paragraph that the 10 warden of Sarpoza prison complained to you and Mr. Davison 11 about Canadian high expectations of detainee treatment and 12 that this in some way might conflict with Afghan customs 13 and traditions? 14 A. Correct. 15 385. Q. Did you ask the warden if he meant that abuse 16 in custody was in some way an Afghan custom or tradition? 17 A. No, we did not ask that question. 18 386. Q. Did you ask him to elaborate? 19 A. I don't recall if we did ask. 20 387. Q. Okay. I'll take you to another document, 21 Mr. Gosselin. The document at the bottom is 288, and it's 22 Kandahar 0133. 23 A. Okay. 24 388. Q. This is an e-mail, a report of a visit to NDS 25 Kandahar, a form of an e-mail, Kandahar PRT sent blank 88 1 date, 10:44 p.m. to Kandahar KAF, and then there's a 2 number of CCs in there. Ms. Buck was not copied on this 3 one. Colleen Swords and David -- oh, yes, she is. There 4 she is. Colleen Swords, David Mulroney, Kerry Buck are 5 among the CC recipients? 6 A. Yes. I was working on the same document. 7 389. Q. Okay. This visit to the NDS facility was 8 conducted by yourself and Corrections Canada official 9 Linda Garwood? 10 A. Correct. 11 390. Q. And you led this visit, I gather? 12 A. Yes. 13 391. Q. On this first page when I see KPRT ask this 14 question and ask that question, I take it that could mean 15 either yourself or Ms. Garwood? 16 A. Yes. 17 392. Q. Okay. Paragraph 5 I see that KPRT asked what 18 concrete actions were being taken as a result of the 19 allegations of abuse. I take it the allegations there you 20 are speaking of was the incident where you found the 21 electric cable and rubber hose? 22 A. Correct. 23 393. Q. And the General indicated that NDS 24 headquarters was looking into the allegations. I gather 25 he meant NDS in Kabul? 89 1 A. Yes. 2 394. Q. When asked were there formal investigations 3 being conducted, he indicated that he did not think so. 4 So at that time the General didn't think that the incident 5 was being investigated? 6 A. He was not in a position to -- well, he didn't 7 know if it was a formal investigation or what process was 8 going on. 9 395. Q. It was your understanding that NDS HQ was 10 investigating, however? 11 A. Yes. 12 396. Q. If I go to the second page I see that the 13 General would not allow you to have access to detainees on 14 this date? 15 A. Yes, that's correct. 16 397. Q. And his explanation was that all the Canadian- 17 transferred detainees were going to Sarpoza? That was his 18 reason? 19 A. Can you repeat that? 20 398. Q. Why did he say that you couldn't see the 21 detainees? 22 A. The explanation that he provided was that 23 there was a date transfer being scheduled for that day and 24 it was part of the normal procedure and up to the 25 detainees, CME, anyone for security reasons. 90 1 399. Q. And did this include the detainee who had 2 given you allegations of being beaten with the hose and 3 cable? 4 A. This included all the detainees present at the 5 time. 6 400. Q. Okay. Just so we're clear, the detainees were 7 in fact in the facility at that time, to your knowledge? 8 A. Can you say that again? 9 A. To your knowledge, those detainees were in 10 fact present in the facility at the time of your visits? 11 That seems to be what you are -- 12 A. Well, at the moment it wasn't clear, but we 13 found out later that they were still there when we were 14 there. 15 401. Q. Okay. The detainee who told you he had been 16 beaten with an electric cable and a rubber hose, have you 17 ever spoken to that detainee again? 18 A. I answered that question in the previous 19 cross-examination. 20 402. Q. Correct my memory. What was your answer? 21 A. It was "yes". 22 403. Q. Was it at Sarpoza or NDS? 23 A. At NDS. 24 404. Q. At the second time that you had interviewed 25 that particular detainee did the General or did the 91 1 facility know that you had made a report of allegations of 2 abuse by that time? 3 A. I have to think. No, they didn't. 4 405. Q. Okay. Have you seen that detainee since his 5 allegations of abuse became known to the NDS? 6 A. Pardon me? 7 406. Q. Have you seen that detainee, Mr. Gosselin, 8 since his allegations of abuse became known to the NDS? 9 A. I'm not sure. I don't remember. 10 407. Q. Okay. I'll take you to another report, 11 Mr. Gosselin. This one has 283 at the bottom. It's 12 Kandahar 0134. 13 A. Yes. 14 408. Q. This was a visit to Sarpoza prison. It's 15 Kandahar 134. Is that correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 409. Q. On this date I understand that you were not 18 able to access the detainees? 19 MR. GRAHAM: Are you still there? 20 MR. CHAMP: 21 410. Q. Mr. Gosselin? 22 A. That's correct. 23 411. Q. Okay. You were denied access at that time? 24 A. The day of that visit was a visit day and it 25 was very [private?] compared to the previous time we were 92 1 there and the warden there and his personnel felt that it 2 was too dangerous for security reasons they asked us not 3 to -- well, they suggested that we didn't do a visit and 4 we agreed. 5 412. Q. Give me a minute, Mr. Gosselin. I'll just 6 have a couple more questions for you and we'll be done. 7 Mr. Gosselin, could you turn to the report that has 288 at 8 the bottom? Pardon me, sorry, hold on, that's the wrong 9 one; sorry. 290. 10 A. Do you have the other report number? 11 413. Q. I believe so. I'm just not necessarily asking 12 you questions on all of them. Is there something you want 13 to add about one of the reports? 14 MR. GRAHAM: I think he wants the number at the 15 top. 16 MR. CHAMP: 17 414. Q. Sorry about that. 18 A. I found the other document when you gave me 19 the Kandahar report number. 20 415. Q. Yes. It's Kandahar 0138. 21 A. Okay. Got it. 22 416. Q. So Kandahar 0138. This was a visit to Sarpoza 23 prison by yourself and Ms. Garwood? 24 A. Correct. 25 417. Q. In this report you interviewed a number of 93 1 detainees. Is that correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 418. Q. It looks like you interviewed three Canadian- 4 transferred -- oh, four Canadian-transferred detainees. 5 Is that correct? Take a moment and take a look. 6 A. Yeah, correct. 7 419. Q. All of these individuals at Sarpoza prison, 8 they had been previously held at the NDS facility and then 9 transferred to Sarpoza. Is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 420. Q. So the Canadian Forces had given them to the 12 NDS and then the NDS subsequently transferred them to 13 Sarpoza after interrogating them? 14 A. After completing their investigation, yes. 15 421. Q. Okay. So they've got some details here about 16 the investigation it seems. If you look at page 2 of 4, 17 the first detainee indicated that the had been slapped in 18 the face during interrogations? 19 A. Correct. 20 422. Q. The second detainee that you interviewed 21 indicated that he had been beaten on a number of occasions 22 in NDS custody with a cable? 23 A. I don't know. He didn't put -- he didn't 24 indicate the -- any detail about how it happened. 25 423. Q. Well, if you look at page 3 of 4 and go down 5 94 1 paragraphs, and by counting paragraphs I'm including just 2 single sentences, there is a paragraph that starts, "He 3 claims that he was interrogated on...", blank, 4 "...occasions". 5 A. That's right. 6 424. Q. And that he was beaten on blank of these 7 occasions? 8 A. Right. I wasn't looking at the right 9 paragraph, yeah. 10 425. Q. And then he explained that each interrogation 11 lasted between two to four hours, and he alleged that he 12 was beaten several times with a cable and was told that he 13 would be blank? 14 A. Yes. 15 426. Q. So in fact he did tell you that he was beaten 16 with an electric cable? 17 A. He mentioned it was a cable. 18 427. Q. It could well have been the same cable that 19 you had found at the NDS facility before? 20 A. I wouldn't make assumption. 21 428. Q. Did you ask him for any details about the 22 cable he had been beaten with? You had seen the other 23 one. 24 A. No, I don't remember asking any more detail. 25 429. Q. Then he says here that he was told that he 95 1 would be blank. I gather that was some kind of threat 2 that was delivered to him? 3 A. It's redacted so I don't want to provide any 4 details that would lead to identification. 5 MR. CHAMP: Is it okay if I ask him if he was 6 threatened? 7 MR. GRAHAM: What are you referring to? 8 MR. CHAMP: Right there. It says he alleged that 9 he was beaten several times with a cable and was told that 10 he would be blank. 11 MR. GRAHAM: That's redacted. We object to any 12 further questions about that information about what he was 13 told. *O* 14 MR. CHAMP: 15 430. Q. But he was told that something would happen to 16 him and that's pretty clear? 17 MR. GRAHAM: Well, we can all read it. I'm not 18 sure that the Witness can help you in that regard. 19 MR. CHAMP: 20 431. Q. It was you that wrote this, was it not, 21 Mr. Gosselin? 22 A. Can you say that again? 23 432. Q. You wrote or reviewed this report. Is that 24 correct? 25 A. Yes, I wrote the report. 96 1 433. Q. And by this phrasing you meant that he was 2 told that he would be blank, meaning something was going 3 to happen to him? 4 MR. GRAHAM: I object to that question. *O* 5 MR. CHAMP: Okay. 6 434. Q. The next two detainees that you interviewed, 7 they did not say they had been beaten, although one 8 indicated he had been verbally abused? 9 A. That's correct. 10 435. Q. Mr. Gosselin, we have reviewed a number of 11 your reports. I think I've seen all of them, at least up 12 to the date they were produced to me. I counted that you 13 received five allegations of some form of abuse. There 14 was two in this report -- hold on a second. Yes, there 15 was two in this report; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 436. Q. And then in Kandahar 0125 there was two 18 allegations of abuse? That's the document with 280 at the 19 bottom. 20 A. Correct. 21 437. Q. Then we have the allegation of abuse that you 22 received in Kandahar report 0123, the gentleman who said 23 he had been beaten with the cable and rubber hose which... 24 A. Correct. 25 438. Q. ...you subsequently found. So that's five 97 1 allegations of abuse or torture that you heard between 2 November 5th and your departure to Canada on December 3 10th. Is that correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 439. Q. And you arrived back in Kandahar on January 6 5th or so. Is that correct? 7 A. I transited through Kandahar but I came 8 straight to Kabul. 9 440. Q. Have you made it back to Kandahar yet? 10 A. No. 11 441. Q. Have you conducted any further visits yet? 12 A. No. 13 442. Q. Okay. Are you aware if there have been any 14 further allegations of abuse or torture since you left 15 Afghanistan on December 10th? 16 A. No. 17 443. Q. It's possible that there are some but you are 18 just not in on those e-mails? Is that possible? 19 A. I'm -- like I said, I'm not aware of any 20 indication. I didn't participate within any visits and I 21 haven't seen any reports. 22 444. Q. You haven't seen any of the reports of other 23 site visits; is that so? 24 A. I've seen the technical assessments, capacity 25 building visit reports, but I haven't seen any visits with 98 1 interviews. 2 445. Q. So you mean the CSC, Correctional Service 3 Canada reports. You've seen those but not the DFAIT 4 reports of site visits. 5 A. No, I've seen DFAIT reports of site visits 6 with but with -- not for -- for detainee interview. For 7 capacity building activity. 8 446. Q. Mr. Gosselin, I believe I'm done. I'm just 9 going to have just a discussion with Mr. Graham. 10 MR. CHAMP: We can go off record. 11 (OFF RECORD DISCUSSION) 12 MR. CHAMP: 13 447. Q. Mr. Gosselin, we're now back on the record. 14 I'm essentially finished my cross-examination. I just 15 want to confirm with you that these site report visits 16 that I have are in fact your own site visit reports. 17 We've gone through most of them, if not all of 18 them, but I just want to confirm again for the record 19 because we are going to enter them as an exhibit. So the 20 first one was Kandahar 0123? 21 A. Yes. 22 448. Q. The next one was Kandahar 0125? 23 A. Yes. 24 449. Q. Then there is Kandahar 0126? This is the one 25 that's got 292 at the bottom. 99 1 A. Yes. Correct. 2 450. Q. Kandahar 0127? This is the one that's got 294 3 at the bottom. 4 A. Correct. 5 451. Q. Kandahar 0128 with 295 at the bottom? 6 A. Did you say 0128? 7 452. Q. Yes, I believe so. Hold on. Yes, Kandahar 8 0128. 9 A. I don't see that one. 10 453. Q. Kandahar 0128, the one I have, it's got 295 at 11 the bottom. Again, it doesn't have the date but it 12 indicates it is a periodic follow-up visit to Sarpoza 13 prison and that the visit was conducted by Mr. Davison and 14 yourself. 15 A. Yes, I don't have this one, but I think that's 16 correct. 128 would make sense. 17 MR. GRAHAM: You are saying it's not in the 18 package in front of you. Is that right? 19 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 20 MR. GRAHAM: Okay. 21 MR. CHAMP: We can address that after. 22 MR. GRAHAM: Sure. 23 MR. CHAMP: 24 454. Q. Then Kandahar 0133? 25 A. Yes. 100 1 455. Q. Kandahar 0134? 2 A. Yes. 3 456. Q. Kandahar 0138? 4 A. Yes. 5 457. Q. And those are all the ones that I have for 6 you. 7 MR. CHAMP: I'll just ask to have that package of 8 documents entered as an exhibit. I guess that's Exhibit 2 9 to the Cross-Examination of Mr. Gosselin. 10 EXHIBIT NO. 2: Package of eight visit reports. 11 MR. CHAMP: Those are all my questions. Thank 12 you, Mr. Gosselin. I'm not sure if Mr. Graham has any 13 questions. 14 MR. GRAHAM: I have no questions. Thank you, 15 Mr. Gosselin. 16 17 --THIS EXAMINATION ADJOURNED AT 10:00 A.M., 18 ON JANUARY 21, 2008. 19 20 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best of my 21 skill and ability, taken down in stenomask and 22 transcribed the foregoing Examination. 23 24 ........................................... 25 Sheri Holt-Christensen 1 Examination No. 08-0054.1 Court File No. T-324-07 2 3 FEDERAL COURT 4 B E T W E E N: 5 AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL CANADA and 6 BRITISH COLUMBIA CIVIL LIBERTIES ASSOCIATION 7 Applicants 8 - and - 9 CHIEF OF DEFENCE STAFF FOR THE CANADIAN FORCES, 10 MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE and 11 THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA 12 Respondents 13 ********************** 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF NICHOLAS GOSSELIN, on his Affidavit, 15 dated December 14, 2007, pursuant to an appointment made on 16 consent of the parties, to be reported by Gillespie 17 Reporting Services, on January 21, 2008, commencing at the 18 hour of 9:12 in the forenoon. 19 *********************** 20 APPEARANCES: 21 MR. P. CHAMP for the Applicants 22 MR. S. GRAHAM for the Respondents 23 MR. K. AMGAN for the Respondents 24 This Examination was reported by Sheri Holt-Christensen at Ottawa, 25 Ontario, having been duly sworn for the purpose. 1 (i) 2 3 4 INDEX 5 6 7 8 9 NAME OF WITNESS: NICHOLAS GOSSELIN 10 11 EXAMINATION BY: MR. CHAMP 12 13 NUMBER OF PAGES: 74 THROUGH TO 100 14 15 16 17 18 ADVISEMENTS, OBJECTIONS & UNDERTAKINGS 19 20 *O* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 82, 95, 96 21 22 23 24 25 26 EXHIBITS 27 28 29 EXHIBIT NO. 2: Package of eight visit reports. . . . . . . . 100 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 DATE TRANSCRIPT ORDERED: JANUARY 21ST, 2008 50 51 DATE TRANSCRIPT COMPLETED: JANUARY 21ST, 2008